Breaking Barriers: Navigating the Evolving World of Healthcare and Medical Sales.
Join Jasper Freeman, Director of National Accounts at SC Pharmaceuticals, as he shares his transformative journey in medical sales. From pioneering the heart failure treatment device, FUROSCIX, to making groundbreaking strides in home healthcare, Jasper unveils how cutting-edge technology is reducing hospital visits and revolutionizing patient care.
Explore the complex world of Pharmacy Benefit Managers (PBMs) and how their growing influence is reshaping the pharmaceutical industry. Jason discusses the challenges PBMs face, from federal scrutiny to shifting operations abroad, and offers essential insights into healthcare cost control and transparency.
In this episode, Jason also provides strategies for succeeding in medical sales, emphasizing the power of networking, continuous learning, and understanding the intricate relationship between insurance, sales, and patient care. As healthcare reform takes center stage, discover Jason’s bold ideas for systemic change and how aspiring professionals can navigate their careers to make a lasting impact in the industry.
Connect with Jasper: LinkedIn
Connect with Me: LinkedIn
Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share! Here’s How »
Want to connect with past guests and access exclusive Q&As? Join our EYS Skool Community today!
Watch the episode here:
Or Listen to it on your favorite platform:
Episode Transcript:
00:07 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Hello and welcome to the Medical Sales Podcast. I’m your host, samuel, founder of a revolutionary medical sales training and mentorship program called the Medical Sales Career Builder, and I’m also host of the Medical Sales Podcast. In this podcast, I interview top medical sales reps and leading medical sales executives across the entire world. It doesn’t matter what medical sales industry from medical device to pharmaceutical, to genetic testing and diagnostic lab you name it. You will learn how to either break into the industry, be a top 10% performer within your role or climb the corporate ladder. Welcome to the Medical Sales Podcast, climb the corporate ladder. Welcome to the Medical Sales Podcast. And remember I am a medical sales expert sharing my own opinion about this amazing industry and how it can change your life. Hello and welcome to the Medical Sales Podcast.
00:55
Today we have another special guest and he goes by the name of Jasper Freeman. He works for SC Pharmaceuticals. He’s the Director of National Accounts. This is the man that’s all things insurance in the pharmaceutical, medical sales, medical device world, and today we dig deep into what it means for all of these medical sales professionals when it comes to the insurance game what it means to the manufacturers, to the government, to the companies themselves and, of course, to the sales reps and doctors. This is an episode you don’t want to miss. If you’re someone that’s in the industry and you’ve been thinking about making moves into management and beyond and you’ve been curious about well, how important is it that I master the insurance game, this is the episode you have to listen to. As always, we do our best to bring you innovative guests that are doing things differently in the medical space, and I really do hope you enjoy this interview. All right, Jasper, how are we doing today?
01:45 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I’m doing well. Thank you, samuel, finally get a chance to meet you.
01:49 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, yeah man. Your sister talks very highly of you by the way, hey man, I appreciate you, I appreciate her and I appreciate you sharing that with me. Sc Pharmaceuticals you know, tell us a little bit about the company, what you guys are working on and your place in it.
02:05 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Sure, SC Pharmaceutical stands for subcutaneous. The first product that we came out with is a product for cardiovascular disease, for heart failure, no-transcript. They build up fluid in their ankles and mostly in the interstitial areas which sometimes you can’t even see, and the only recourse for doctors and for patients was to go into the hospital. And you know there’s who wants to go to the hospital, right, you know, usually it’s like three or four days. You know somebody’s waking you up every hour on the hour. And so my company came up with the idea of why don’t we put this into a device that actually can deliver the diuretic furosemide over a five-hour period of time from the comfort of a patient’s home and do it for a fraction of the cost of a patient going into the hospital? Insurance companies should like it, Patients should like it, Doctors should like it, and so that’s been the battle.
03:26
My current role right now is I retired four years ago, five years ago and, you know, did a little traveling and, you know, essentially got bored. So I started consulting, doing payer insurance company playbooks for smaller companies who couldn’t afford to have a team, and one of my clients, SC Pharma, asked me to come in and be an account director, national account director for them. So I right now cover all payers across the board. As far as PBMs, right now I have CVS excuse me I have Optum and I have Prime. I also have 52 state Medicates too at the same time, so it keeps me relatively busy, but the company’s doing well right now.
04:15 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
That’s the beauty of medical sales right when you can have an amazing career. You can retire and, because of your skill set, be called right back in and literally have your second act and enjoy it like you’re enjoying it now.
04:26 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
It’s pretty sweet Versus, say, a professional athlete. Right, I mean, once they’re done, they’re done. All the knowledge that I’ve obtained over the last 35, 40 years is really of value out in the marketplace right now. And so I was a leader of people of the job that I’m doing now, and so I was a leader of people that of the job that I’m doing now. Now I’m doing that baseline job and actually doing it at a high level because I have been a leader before, so I’m helping my boss to be more effective.
04:55 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Absolutely. So let’s talk about it, because people listening now a lot of them they want to enter medical sales. They’ve never even. They have no context for the things you’re talking about. And then, of course, a lot of them are in medical sales but they might not be familiar with your space. So let’s go back to SE Pharma and the device. Give us a little bit more on what exactly is the device. You said it’s at home. How are you actually using it? And is this in the pharmaceutical space? Is this more in the biotech space and Is this more in the medical device space? Give us a little context for our audience.
05:27 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Sure, sure, right now FUROSCIX and that’s the name of the product is actually paid for and adjudicated on the pharmacy side. It is a product, right now that you know, you’ve got to go through a specialty pharmacy hub of which a doctor writes a prescription. Through our system, that hub gets a prescription. They do the adjudication, looks at insurance for the patient, gets everything done, you know, issues a copay to the patient and the product is sent out to the patient with instructions on how to use it. It is a device that actually attaches to the abdomen. It’s about the size of a cell phone and attaches to the abdomen with 3M tape on it and the patient. After making sure the air is clear and there’s no lotions or anything, they push a button and actually a small needle comes out and I’ve heard that it’s. It’s pretty painless and it actually starts to deliver product over the five hour period of time, that diuretic over a five hour period of time.
06:36 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Wow, okay, that sounds pretty innovative. Okay, so, with your role in the insurance space, you know, give us a little context in how that plays into a product like this and getting to the public and getting to someone that can be at home using it right now. Again, our audience is not familiar with how insurance plays into everything and that landscape is always changing, so please share with us how it plays into this product.
07:01 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Sure, and I would say insurance is more important in the United States than it probably is anywhere else in the product. Sure, and I would say insurance is more important in the United States than it probably is anywhere else in the world. Most other civilized countries the government actually negotiates with pharma, drugs, medical equipment and so forth and get a discount as a result of all of their patients. We in America we don’t do that. Essentially, our commercial, our job, pays for our commercial insurance. Once you get past 65, medicare pops in there and for those that are in the Medicaid space, they also, you know, have to be taken care of also at the same time. So insurance is really important. So I’m talking about the big time. So insurance is really important. So I’m talking about the big three. They pretty much cover everything CVS, caremark, united Healthcare, optum and Express Scripts. Those are the major three ones, and then all of the other smaller health plans like Blue Cross, blue Shield of California, blue Cross, blue Shield of Illinois. They’re all underneath those PBMs.
08:07
Pbms stand for Pharmacy Benefit Management Company, so they manage the benefits. A while back, maybe a little bit before I started, usually you write a prescription and there was nobody controlling for the insurance. So your job had insurance for you. But if you were written a prescription, if a prescription was written for you, there was nobody managing and overseeing. Well, is that the right cost? Are we being overcharged for that? Is the patient being overcharged?
08:38
So these people came out. Pbms came out as a result of trying to manage that pharmacy benefit portion. Pbms came out as a result of trying to manage that pharmacy benefit portion To the point now they make billions of dollars, billions and billions of dollars. And now there’s a big drive right now to try to get some clarity around that, because now they ensure you know the employers and people who have employed them are saying wait a minute, you know you’re taking an X amount of dollars, but you’re only giving me this kind of discount back. Where’s the extra money going? And so now there’s been a push now to get more clarity to the point where one of the PBMs has moved to Switzerland and another one moved to Ireland to avoid the US oversight. Yes, sir.
09:22 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Okay. So wait, wait, wait. Let’s go back a little bit, because I think what I want to really dig into today is just how did we get here right and with our current administration, with what’s going on, with Medicare and Medicaid and Dr Oz taking over, how did we get here? Why did this happen? So you just talked about how it used to be that insurance companies had free reign and they can make the decisions and they can charge whatever they want, and it was kind of like the wild wild west, and then these pharmacy benefit managers kind of came in to regulate things. Let’s talk about that just for a second. How long ago was it like the wild wild west? And give us a little bit more insight on what the landscape looked like.
10:06 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Sure, I would say in the 60s, probably around that era there. Essentially what was happening was the budget for people kept going up, higher and higher. So let’s just say, if you work for, if you work for any one of the industries Heinz ketchup company your insurance was taken care of. You work for them. You got a card, you go to see your doctor that was pretty much paid for and then the doctor would write you a prescription. So you went and filled it at your local Walgreens and it was adjudicated and everything was good.
10:48
However, as drugs became more and more expensive right, and they started to have more effectiveness and the cost of drugs started to go up, companies kept looking at their budget and their bill every year and they go wait a minute, you know, this is up 20% from the previous year. We need somebody to manage this and that’s how the PBMs were able to kind of get their way in. They were supposed to be a way of just managing that pharmacy benefit, but it’s become so big now because drugs like Humira or some of these drugs that are multi-billion dollar drugs now, are so much money involved with them that if the company gave you, say, a 20% discount, that could be $60 billion off of a drug. That is that high cost. So it’s become big now.
11:45 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Okay, so the 60s is when the PBM started to show up. When did it get out of control and when did the PBM start to just become their own players? That made all this money.
11:57 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, I would say in the 70s and 80s about when I started the PBM started to become very, very big and as the cost of drugs went up, of course they made more money as a result of it. And a lot of these companies Seagate’s Care Mart, one of the largest retail pharmacy distribution networks in the country they pretty much run their stock, they have stock, they have a board of directors, so they got to answer to these folks also. So they would take, they carve, a little bit more out of the amount of money that they were taking in for employers.
12:34 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Was there a time when it was great to have the PBMs and the intention of them regulating things was well received and they were doing that? I mean, did that ever exist and if it did, how long did that last?
12:46 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I’d say it’s probably by the 90s. I would say that it started getting out of control. So let me give you an idea of why. In pharmaceuticals, say, you have a drug for diabetes, the first drug that comes out is usually that original drug that helps the type two diabetic to to live a normal life. However, another company comes out and tweaks the molecule a little bit and now it’s a little bit better. Maybe you don’t have to take it three times a day, maybe you have to take it twice a day. But that company still wants to get their product on formulary with that PBM. So now they say, well, we’ll give you X amount of percent off of our drug to get ourselves there. And so that keeps going right.
13:32
The next generation, the third generation, the fourth generation, they’re all wanting to give a portion of their profits to the PBM to gain formulary approval. So when the doctor writes the prescription it actually gets filled and doesn’t get blocked. So that’s how they get more and more power. Because the cost of drugs and biologics. Biologics are drugs that actually use human tissue or cells to actually make other drugs. But those are very expensive, very expensive other drugs so, but those are very expensive, very expensive. So the percent of profit you make off of a biologic is a lot more than a pill that someone’s got to take for the rest of their lives.
14:14 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Gotcha. Okay, so the nineties, it starts getting out of control, but gosh, it is 2025. So that that’s that’s 35 years or 30 years of out of control. And you’re saying now they’re starting to reel it in what’s been happening in the last 30 years and why is it so definitive that now they’re starting to reel it in?
14:36 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I would say probably because of the lack of transparency. I think the federal government now has become a bigger portion of the health care dollar. So Medicare, medicaid, military, va, it’s easy 50% of the total US dollar. So you’ve got the federal government involved now, also because they want the lowest prices that they possibly can get, because it’s less for you and I as taxpayers, right? Uh, the employers also want the exact same thing that they’re saying hey, the cost of this is why co-pays have occurred, so you can’t go to a pharmacy or to a doctor anymore without having something come out of your pocket. And that’s their, that’s their effort to try to do cost sharing, right, they know the price of everything is going up. So if the patient is actually sharing in that price, maybe we’ll be a little bit more judicious in the way that we utilize the healthcare system.
15:40 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Got it Okay. So I guess, is it the federal government that’s then now saying, hey, this is out of control. We need even more transparency and we need to make the pendulum start swinging the other way.
15:53 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yes, and you’ve seen it in different types of laws and acts where there’s part of the IRA is that there’s got to be clarity about what happens with rebates, so that there’s no smoke and mirrors about where the profit is. But that also caused the move to Switzerland for a certain portion of commercial and the move to Ireland where they can I don’t want to say manipulate, but I want to just say that be more protected and lower their risk for exposure as far as the rebates concerned, because it got border directors, they got stockholders, people who you know are really looking at this. So I would say that you know this is just where we’ve come to right now. I don’t, I think there’s just too powerful. They’re controlling billions of dollars of product right now. I think they’re just too powerful.
16:48 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
They’re controlling billions of dollars of product, right now, and I just don’t know if it can be stopped. So when a company, when a big player like this, a PBM, exists in the United States and then decides to move to Ireland to avoid things, talk to us about what’s changed for them right in a little bit more detailed level. What were they at risk for in the United States that they’re no longer at risk for because they moved to Ireland?
17:13 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I would just say clarity and transparency around the level and the number of dollars that they take in in rebates from drug and biological and medical device manufacturers. Got it, manufacturers Got it and you know. Now that you’ve taken that you know to another country that has a whole different tax structure versus the United States, that might be beneficial for you and for your stockholders.
17:44 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Wow. So how does this affect every level? So let’s talk about it. You have these companies, now the federal government, saying, hey, we need more transparency, you guys are taking too much money, and let’s pretend that there’s success there, that because the federal government is doing this, the PBMs are now forced to adjust things and make it, I guess, less expensive. How are pharmaceutical companies and medical device companies affected? How are our doctors affected? And, finally, how are consumers affected?
18:12 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah.
18:16
So let’s start with the insurance companies. They’re manufacturers. They’re affected because now the PBMs and the insurers are much more risk-averse, meaning that they’re not going to add that fourth product or that biologic, or they’re not going to add something to their formula because they don’t know what their profit level is going to be off of adding that in. So it’s difficult, it’s more difficult. My job is more difficult today than it was 20 years ago or 10 years ago. For patients.
18:54
Patients are going to find that they don’t have as much choice. So their doctor may write a certain product for them. For you know, say they have a heart disease and maybe that product is not available through the insurance that they’re in portal or through Medicare are able to provide to them. So the patient may not be able to get the drug they want. They’ll probably be given an alternate drug that may or may not have the same efficacy or safety profile or whatever. For physicians, they’re pretty much fed up with the insurance situation. They’re saying you’re trying to dictate to me how to best treat my patients and you don’t know. My patient, Jasper different than Samuel and I need to treat Jasper in this way. I need to treat Samuel in this way and here’s the tools that I need to be able to treat them effectively and they’re just frustrated with that whole process, though got it.
19:52 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So okay. So let me get you know from from my perspective. You’re telling me that, on one side, pums were making too much money, but even though they’re making all this money, they were allowing more drugs available to more patients, and manufacturers were happy because they can get more drug on the formulary. Patients were happy because they can get access to drugs they need. It sounds like everybody’s winning, and, of course, the PBMs are winning because they’re making all this money. The government, though, I guess, is the one that’s suffering from that vantage point. Yeah, and now the government’s trying to push things the other way, which makes the patients have less access to the drugs they need. Doctors have less choice of the patients the ones that want to give the patients and PBMs make less money. So everyone’s suffering, except for the government.
20:43 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, but that’s 50% of the total healthcare dollar and the government’s always going to strive to get the best price. And they’re the big, they’re the bully on the corner. So you know, versus, say, you working for Heinz or Honeywell or any of the other big corporations, they don’t have the same muscle power that the United States government does. So the PBMs are listening, the insurers are listening, everybody’s listening to what the federal government has to say now.
21:14 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Okay, so now I’m going to put it on you, Jennifer. What’s the solution?
21:21 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
What’s the solution? Oh my God, oh man, I don’t think I’m ready for that question. I would say that it starts probably an area that we haven’t even talked about, and that’s in the training of health care personnel doctors, nurses, all of the doctors that you and I see. They pay for their own medical training. That is just in America. In other civilized countries they support the medical training of their physicians and therefore their cost of healthcare is a lot less as a result of that.
22:10
Here in the United States, if a doctor gets a residency, like your sister, and maybe goes into a specialty, they could have four, five, six, seven hundred thousand dollars in loans for their degree. So now they need to make enough to be able to pay those loans back, and that’s the difference in the health care costs between other countries like Japan or any of the other civilized countries and the United States right now. I think that’s just a place that we could start, and it starts to lower the overall fees, and if the federal government is helping to train you, then you have a certain responsibility back to the government as a result of that. Let’s dig into that a little bit.
23:00 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
I want to understand that on a granular level. So you’re saying something that can contribute to. The solution is to better train physicians, to lower the cost of the physician.
23:12 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
No, so that when a physician actually goes through training, the cost of that is taken care of to a certain extent by the government, which is what happens in other civilized countries. So, as you can see, I need to make if I’ve got a bill of $20,000 to $60,000, depending on my specialty per month that I’ve got to pay to pay back the loan rate to help me to get to this point. But I need to make a certain amount. So I need to be, you know, to charge a certain amount for my services. If I didn’t have that debt when I first came out, then I wouldn’t have to charge that much now and just start doing my job in an effective manner without worrying about do I have this big loan that I have a responsibility?
23:56 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
for Okay, so let’s trickle it down. So let’s pretend that tomorrow the government says you know what? We’re cutting med school fees in half and now you doctors do not have to feel compromised about the choices you make. How does this still solve the issue of when the PBMs are making money, everybody’s winning except the government, and when the government’s happy, everybody’s losing, including the PBMs?
24:15 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, so I thought that that was. The first step is to lower the cost for doctors and so forth. The other assistance is going to be more of the government involved with the treatment and distribution of drugs and treatment to patients. So right now we’re at 50%. You know we probably need to be at 75 or 80% to start to solve that problem. Then the big bully on the corner can then dictate to the PBMs no, you can’t move to Switzerland, you can’t move to Ireland. No, we need to see your books to know exactly what we’re paying for and that we’re getting the lowest cost for our constituents.
24:58 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So when you you know what I love about your insight, Jasper, is you have a global insight, right? You understand how it works in the United States and, as you put it, you understand how it works in all these other civilized countries and, as you put it, you understand how it works in all these other civilized countries. Give us a country that’s doing it. In your opinion, I might even say the right way, because I think that’s not fair, but better than we are Give us a country that’s doing it a lot better than we are.
25:20 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
You know you’d have to go. Just do some reading on Japan and their health care system. You will probably be surprised at how well they do it. Be surprised at how well they do it. You can look at Canada, you can look at Australia, you can look at Britain any of the European countries. They understand that this is not like a benefit. It’s not something that’s just entitled to a person. This is actually something that is right to have with health care.
25:54 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
What’s the biggest impact on the population when they’re doing it like the way Japan’s doing it, as opposed to the way the United States is?
26:03 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
doing it. Impact is, I would say, the total quality of healthcare is higher in those other countries, meaning that we are not number one the way that we’re doing it. We’re not number one in fetal mortality. We’re not number one in treating cancer. We’re not number one in treating multiple chronic diseases. We are number one in research and development and of new, very innovative biologics and drugs to help us, but we’re not number one in the way that we’re treating the inpatient and they seem to get better health care outcomes in those countries as a result of the way they’ve got it laid out.
26:58 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So then, and excuse the ignorance, because I’m going to say something that might you know someone of your knowledge, you might be like what are you talking about? So you know, when you hear about an American tourist, right, and they have an accident in Japan and they’re quickly flown to the United States to get the best care, and, on the same token, you’re saying that actually, for a lot of these same issues, japan has the best care and they have better patient outcomes in the US. So, in that simple example, why are they flying that person all the way to the US? Why aren’t they taking care of it in Japan, especially if it happens in Japan?
27:32 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, it might be about insurance, depending on what the insurance covers. Right, if you cannot, you know, be treated there now, if it’s life threatening, they’ve got to be treated in Japan. It’s not going to I mean, it’s your life. You don’t care how much it costs at that particular point. But if you need a major surgery appendicitis or blocked coronary artery, something serious like that you know you might want to fly back, but also jeopardizing your life by making that trip back to the United States when you can be treated effectively there. But the only thing I can think of is maybe it’s insurance when you can be treated effectively there. But the only thing I can think of is maybe it’s insurance. I can’t think of any other reason why their person would want to fly back. And it’s a long flight. I just did it in December. So I just did it in December, so it’s a long flight.
28:23 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, wow, okay. So we’re in the state we’re in. Now what direction?
28:33 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
are we going right now? That’s tough, because I think the current sentiment right now is to be more isolationist and to be more capitalist and to do it the American way, which is the way that we’ve done it up to this point. So I don’t see it changing at all. I think it’s going to. I just don’t see it changing from where it is now. We just have the innovative people and positions of power to be able to make the positive changes that we need. And, granted, we’re still doing pretty darn well. It’s just we’re not number one. You think if we’re doing, if our system is so good, then we should be number one in all those things that I’ve mentioned before.
29:26 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, yeah. So then if PBMs are leaving to other countries to avoid having to be transparent, patients are compromised because they can’t get access to the drugs they need. Doctors are compromised because they can’t write what they want for their patients. What will this look like and of course, you don’t know, right, we’re just talking here. What would this look like 15, 20 years from now?
29:50
I hope you’re enjoying today’s episode and I want to let you know. Our programs cover the entire career of a medical sales professional, from getting into the medical sales industry to training on how to be a top performer in the medical sales industry, to masterfully navigating your career to executive level leadership. These programs are personalized and customized for your specific career and background and trained by over 50 experts, including surgeons. Our results speak for ourselves and we’re landing positions for our candidates in less than 120 days in top medical technology companies like Stryker, medtronic, merck, abbott you name it. Would you run an Iron man race without training and a strategy? You wouldn wouldn’t. So why are you trying to do the same with the medical sales position? You need training, you need a strategy and you need to visit, evolve your sets, calm, fill out the application schedule some time with one of our account executives and let’s get you into the position that you’ve always dreamed of so here’s what’s happened.
30:50 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
The one good thing it’s many great things about capitalism, but the one good thing is that there’s a gap. Somebody’s going to figure out how to fill it in and what has happened is multiple smaller pbms have popped up who say here are books, here’s what we charge, here’s what are the costs and the operations of our organization and to give you the type of response that you need. And so multiples of these to come up. So I think those companies are going to start to get more and more power. They’re going to get more and more customers and clients and I think over time they’re going to chip away at some of the big PBM players right now.
31:36 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Got it and then this is going to. By them doing that, patients are going to have more access to more options, doctors are going to be able to write more freely. Absolutely Got it, got it. Let’s switch gears a little bit and take it now to the medical sales professional. You know, gosh, back in my day they talked a lot about in my early days. They talked a lot about how, if you want to be a competent medical professional in the United States, you better learn the insurance game and you better know that insurance game like the back of your hand. Talk to us a little bit about that. Is that true today? And when I hear insurance, I just think it’s changing so much. I almost feel like how do you get on top of that game? But anyway, please give us your thoughts on that statement.
32:24 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
You better know insurance inside and out, and that’s been my job with everybody, that I talk to all the sales reps that I support, all the regional sales directors, the marketing people inside. You just got to know and it’s like that one blips they sent us that says, if you want your bonus, click on this dot. But the dot would move every time you go to click on it. That’s how insurance because it’s constantly changing You’re never going to be an expert in it. You may have fundamentals that allow you to understand how it works, but there’s going to be multiple details that will pop up, have to be taken a look at.
33:09
For example, medicare is changing a lot. Next year or this year, patients have a cap of $2,000 on their Medicare, so the gap has actually been defined now. So it used to be if you were on a biologic hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, you’d have to find a way of paying a portion of that. But now it’s being capped and you know that’s putting more pressures on the pbms. Right, because they’re saying, well, shoot, you know that means I’m gonna have to absorb a lot more risk. Yeah, so they’re saying, hey, we’ve got to do something about that, and what that has resulted in me, as a medical professional, is it’s more difficult for me to help my company get my drug or my device on formula Because they’re saying, no, we’re taking drugs off the formula, we’re not putting drugs on the formula, I don’t care how good it is.
34:04 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, so then what’s your recourse? I mean, what do you do?
34:10 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
You stay at it every day, become relentless. You be I. I’m the best email writer because I write people emails. I tell them the whole story. Do it in a very succinct and clear like this is what it’s going to do for you. This is how it’s going to help your organization and help your company and help you and your career. So you become good in communicating with people. And I just want to get a clinical so that I can share the data on my product for O6 with the key internal people who are managing the formularies.
34:44 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Sure, okay. So let’s take it back then to our audience here. Like I said before, a number of people want to get into medical sales. A number of people want to work and sell a product like this. You know where it’s a little bit, it’s biotech, right, a little bit of device, a little bit of pharma, and the people that are just new to this space and maybe three, four, five years in and they’re saying.
35:15 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
You know what? I’m listening to this episode and I’m thinking, wow, I need to increase my insurance game. What do you advise they do? Everything about insurance, especially from a government standpoint, is online. Go to CMSorg and every document, from Medicaid to Medicare to VA to any of those things, are addressed there. You can look on CVScom also. If you want to look into the CVS and how their PBM works, you can go online and go to Google or any of your search engines and be able to look up how is commercial? How is it changing? What are the challenges that people are dealing with now? And I’m sure this is, and if you’re in the industry now, I’m sure that you’re involved with discussions. If you’re at a national sales meeting, which I’m going to next week, this is discussed. Insurance is going to be discussed about the challenges, because sales can’t increase at the level that senior management expects unless there’s open road there.
36:16
Right, the sales rep. You can go all day long and convince you know, dr Samuel, that you know Ferrosix is the best product, but if every time he writes it gets blocked or the cost of it is so prohibited that the patient says no, no way, I’m not going to do this, so I’m sure they’re dealing with it already and the things that you can do is help doctors to understand the system, how your product is being reimbursed by the. You know one, two or three insurance companies or PBMs in your territory and you know pretty much. Try to understand and learn as much as you possibly can. Stay close and I I just talk. I talk to my sales reps almost every day, um, because they run into a problem. I try to explain to them. You know what the issue is. I utilize my scientific people to help me build a case and to build the right communication on what the issue is, and then we just keep working to overcome it. You have to be relentless.
37:17 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So then, do you recommend that a sales rep that wants to be in management, wants to be a director someday, wants to just keep advancing their career? Do you recommend they actually have a stent in key accounts where they look for an opportunity within the company they work for on the insurance side, or do you think that’s unnecessary and they just need to be tuned in to, like you said, the online resources and just know how to talk about it?
37:43 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, that’s a good question. So I would say that if they want to be a key account manager, that getting that education is going to be really important Because of me as the hiring person the VP, I say who has demonstrated success, but also who demonstrates that knowledge of the insurance environment right, and so if you want to get into that, then that’s good. There’s so many routes that you can environment right and so if you want to get into that, then that’s good. There’s so many routes that you can take. Right. You can go through sales management and a lot of times I hired people who were managers of people before and several of my companies in the past. You had to be at a manager level to actually move into the insurance or payers area right, because you demonstrated a whole lot of things right Leadership, strategic thinking, time management so many different things.
38:43 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Okay, so let me make it a little more pointed with the question. So if I want to be a C-suite one day right, I want to be a COO or CCO or whatever and I’m currently a rep and I have the whole. I’m a young woman or man and I have my whole life ahead of me. Do I need to anticipate getting into the insurance side of the companies I work for, or can I stay out of that and just make sure I’m versed and I’m checking out resources like CMSorg and doing everything you’ve recommended on this show today?
39:13 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, I would say that, for example, my CEO was head of insurance and payers at a previous organization. However, there are other CEOs that I’ve had in the past, or chief commercial officers, who actually went the marketing route, which is another route. I think it’s really important. I’d never got into marketing I did a little bit in Amgen when I was there but it’s a good route. It’s a route that is solid. You learn real skills, you learn budget management, and it’s an important part of most organizations, and so that’s another route that you can take. There’s also a financial route.
39:58 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Right, you’re managing budgets, you’re managing dollars and rebates and things of that nature, so that’s another way that you can be able to get there, way that you can be able to get there With the landscape that we’ve described today, 10 years from now, do you think you’re going to be saying the same thing as far as the routes you should be taking, or do you think it’s going to be a whole different world?
40:19 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I think, with the advent of AI, we don’t know what technology it is going to do to the entire market, and I’m not just talking pharmaceuticals or biologics or anything like that, I’m talking about everything. We don’t know how that technology is going to play out from a business standpoint and a sales standpoint and I just don’t have enough information to be able to make that call.
40:44 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So, yeah, with AI, are you worried about it, Jasper? I mean, do you kind of look at it like it’s going to be what it’s going to be, or is this something you find yourself?
40:56 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I’m not worried about AI. I’ve been around long enough and seen so much changes in technology that I think you can’t stop technology. You can’t stop progress. I utilize AI every day when I get information about a situation that I need to take care of. I’ll put all those things down into a list and then, you know, pose the question to AI to say, or chat to GBT hey, here’s what I need to accomplish. I need to influence this person and I need to have a response. Please spit me out what you think of this.
41:34 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Got it. Yeah, got it. Okay, you know. I do have one question about those who want to break into medical sales. You’re the insurance guy. We’ve talked about insurance for the last 30, 40 minutes. I want to break into medical sales. How should I be, I don’t know? Researching insurance to showcase it, maybe in an interview, to showcase that I have chops around it, or should I even be doing that? Is it beneficial to me? The guy on the outside or the girl on the outside that wants to be in and I’m interviewing? I’m talking to all these people about trying to get a position. Is there any benefit to me being able to speak proficiently about the insurance and how it’s being done in this country?
42:17 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I think you can make a connection between what your current role I mean.
42:22
If you’re a student and just graduating, you don’t have a really current role, but you can talk about your insurance at school and your parents, but I just don’t know if there’s an opportunity for people to you know, to understand the insurance.
42:41
I don’t know if it’s going to help them get their foot in the door. I think that’s what I’m trying to say, because right now it’s connections, your network of people that you have, it’s your training. Do you have a relationship with healthcare or medical or something like that or science? Or do you have a that or science? Or do you have, like a financial or marketing background? And then the questions are you know, are you the type of person, the right person, that can function under a sales quota right when you got to hit that every quarter, and some people can’t handle that stress or that pressure, so you got to figure that out for yourself. I think understanding about insurance and how it works, it’s never going to hurt you, but there’s other things that you need to do to be able to get your foot in the door.
43:32 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Fair enough. When you started your career in medical sales, it seems like you’ve been insurance from the jump.
43:39 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
No, no, I started as a sales rep.
43:41 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
You started as a sales rep.
43:42 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
You started as a sales rep. Wow, started as a sales rep.
43:44 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Date yourself, Jasper. Date yourself right now.
43:47 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I started as a sales rep with a company called Upjohn in 1980. Wow, wow, and Upjohn had a product called ibuprofen.
43:59
Wow, and Upjohn had a product called ibuprofen, which was a prescription product for arthritic patients, patients with rheumatoid and osteoarthritis. So I introduced 600 milligram Motrin, I introduced 800 milligram Motrin. Okay, and we had other products. It was a very, very good company but it was set in its ways and they eventually had to sell over to another European company and so I moved to another company, a smaller company called Key. That was a startup. We had sustained release nitroglycerin patches for patients with angina. So I had picked up two states. I’d travel, all just driving, just driving, a lot of money, and it was a lot, it was a lot of fun. They were sold to someone and I became. I went to do such training New Jersey and they were shovel to sharing plow and subs training and then they moved me to Chicago as a district manager. So you, things kind of happened quickly.
45:01 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So you, were in medical sales during the heyday. Yeah, I mean, you saw the craziness, the baseball games, the concerts, the all of it.
45:09 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
We did a lot and samples, you know, we used to okay, samples were good because it helped patients to get on drug, but we also provide them to the pharmacist for taking care of, you know, patients and things like that, or exchanging them for returns, and I think the you know the level. I don’t think they can come after me now for something that happened that long ago so, but everybody was doing it at that point you know.
45:36 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
so when I entered the industry, all of that had just the kibosh had been put on all of that like right when I entered. But I still hear the stories. So then, how far into your career do you decide I want to go the insurance route? And what made you decide I want to go the insurance route?
45:55 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I would say it was with a company that I became a key account manager, right, and that’s with larger accounts. I did long-term care, I did prisons. You know things that are out of the ordinary, not just calling on doctors, and it’s because you know I was able to exhibit calling on doctors first of all that I was proficient at that, but I also had other abilities to be able to move into other areas. Somebody moved on or left a company. They need to find somebody to pull in. You need to bring somebody from the outside who you don’t know, by the way, whether they’re going to be effective or go to work or any of those things, versus the person that you know within the organization that is already working at a high level.
46:42 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Sure so, but but still you know okay. So I guess then the question is why did you choose key accounts? Why did you want that?
46:50 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
More money, bigger salary, bigger bonus, but but I’ll say this more pressure on you. So you have to be able to handle that pressure right. Because if you’re handling larger accounts that have more contribution or larger contribution toward the profitability of the organization you’re working for, and people are going to pay attention to you and what you do every day, so there’s more pressure on you to get things done. You know you’ll have a vice president or senior vice president at a meeting walk up to you and say we need to get you know Illinois, the state of Illinois, taken care of. Do you got this and you got to shake your head, go yep, everything’s lined up, it’s ready to go. So so you get. You get access to people maybe that you wouldn’t as the higher you you go up and the more sales and profit responsibility you have, the more exposure you get to uh, to higher leadership sure.
47:54 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
And then last few questions. Right now, uh, as, as you know, director of all these, of national accounts, what do you spend your day doing? I mean, what constitutes your, for lack of a better way of saying it. Nine to five.
48:09 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, I would say. First thing is I check the sales report in the morning to look at where there’s issues, where something that’s taking a long time to get a script through. I try to be proactive as much as I possibly can. Secondarily is getting emails from people and saying I’m getting blocked at this account, or I’m getting blocked in Michigan, or I’m getting blocked in Missouri or Colorado. Can you help with this? So now I’ve got to ask them the right questions and now I’ve gotten the reps to the point now where they’re starting to get the information that I need and go Jasper. Okay, if I’m going to take this to Jasper, I better have all these down, because he’s going to ask me about this, right? Is it commercial? Is it Medicare? Is it Medicaid? Who’s the PBM? Give me the details. Pbm Is this a? You know, give me the details and then I can go and try to make an effort to help you.
49:05
So you know, one issue like that might take an hour, maybe an hour and a half, to try to address it. And then you got to communicate back to the people, especially their leadership, as to what your progress is, and that occurs all the time. So our chief commercial officer. He asked us a bunch of questions in the month of March and I listed them all out and put dates behind them and every week I give him an update on how I’m making progress on those issues that he brought up.
49:38
So I would say that just keeping people informed is the main thing and taking action. You know, when people throw an issue with me, it’s not that they’re saying that they expect you to do this like right away, but they just don’t want you to go dark. You can’t ghost anybody. You have to respond to them as quickly as possible, let them know that you’re on it and then make a note to yourself that you’ve got to follow up with them the next day or two days later, just so they know that you haven’t forgot about the issue they’re dealing with Makes sense.
50:12 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
So you’re pretty much doing that up until the end of the day.
50:15 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I have a reputation as a doer. I have a reputation as a person that gets you know what done, and it’s not so much that it all turns out good, samuel, it’s that somebody is actually working on it and taking responsibility of it, right? I?
50:33 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
love it, I love it. So now, in your second act, you know, you earlier said you retired and then they called you back and you said you know I’m bored, I’m going to go back In your second act. What do you hope to see? You know, what are you trying to do now?
50:47 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I think in the second act I’d like to use everything good and bad that I’ve learned through my career to help, first of all, the organization to succeed. To help, first of all, the organization to succeed. But secondarily, I mentor two or three people in the organization. They want to move up, like you and I have been talking about today, and I help them. We talk about where they’re at, what they want to do, what are the values that they bring to the table? How much research are they doing on insurance companies and their territory and their doctors? How well are they communicating with people? So help with mentoring. So I want to continue doing that and I don’t think I’m ever going to quit. I just I love what I do. I have a reason for getting up in the morning, feel energized and I will be 70 years old in September.
51:45 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Wow, hey, you’re doing everything right, Jasper. I did not know that, so big ups to you. Look at you. Wow, you’re on the move too. I respect it. I want to be like you when I grow up. Well, this has been fantastic, Jasper. You’re doing amazing things. How can people reach you if they want to seek out mentoring, if they love what?
52:05 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
they know LinkedIn. You can look me up on LinkedIn. I’ll respond back as quickly as possible and anything that I can help people with if they’re interested in getting a job and want to come up with a plan, I’d be more than helpful, more than happy to assist people.
52:27 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Last thing. We got one more thing to do before we wrap up today. Are you ready? I am ready. This is called the lightning round. I’m going to ask you four questions. Okay, I have less than 10 seconds to answer. So, basically, the first thing comes to mind and here we go. All right, what’s the best book you’ve read in the last six months?
52:45 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I would say a I’m going to forget the name it’s a spy novel, spy novel, let’s just call it a spy novel.
52:58 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, Okay. So I mean, can we get the name and the author at some point?
53:03 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
yes, yes, at some point you will be in the show notes it’s sitting on my, my bed, with my bed upstairs, so we’ll be the show notes, okay second question what is the best tv show or movie you’ve seen in the last six months?
53:18
best tv show movie in the last six months or a movie uh, either uh, I, I just uh. I would say um, I. You know I’ve been doing a lot of stuff with uh, with my grandchild, and we went to see this thing about the amazing crayon. It was so innovative, it was just so really really cool, very cool.
53:47 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
How many grandchildren do you have?
53:48 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I have two. Hendrix is 14. Luna’s seven, going to be eight soon.
53:53 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Very cute, very cute. Okay, and then third question what is the best meal you’ve had in the last six months? We want the restaurant, if you can, the item and, of course, the location. You asked me a lot of details, man.
54:10 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I’d say we took my daughter and I and family went to New York. She lives in New York. We went to this Italian joint and I’m not going to remember his name, but I will say I would say I had my birthday at one of my favorite restaurants and we love the people who own it. It’s called Maison Pickle. Yeah, it’s in Manhattan and it’s got the best food and if you go there for brunch they have they have a waffle and chicken that’s the size of, you know, the size of a mountain. It’s really, really good.
54:48 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Very cool. Maison pickle. Okay, thank you for that. And then, last but not least, what’s the best experience you’ve had in the last six months?
54:57 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Best experience the last six months. The best experience the last six months, I would say, traveling to Asia. I’ve never been to Asia before. I mentioned that I traveled to Japan Wonderful experience. People there are so kind and friendly. They are very automated. They don’t touch things. You just put your phone up and boom, boom, boom. You’re just there. And then I went to Thailand from there, which was an amazing experience. I love the people there and I think it was also life-changing to visit those places.
55:41 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
You mentioned that that’s beautiful. So when you went to Japan, was it Tokyo or was it somewhere else?
55:49 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
Yeah, it was Tokyo.
55:52 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
I’ve been to Tokyo and I’ve been to Thailand, phuket and the main city, and I’ll tell you this, in Japan I almost wonder if they train, train people to be really nice to foreigners, because I mean, I’ve never been treated that well in my entire life and I’ve been to so many countries and japan which it just stood out like a sore thumb how kindly I was treated. I mean I felt like royalty, uh, in that country. So that’s so cool that you had that experience. And Thailand, yeah, that’s that, that can be spiritual.
56:24 – Jasper Freeman (Guest)
I went to Pattaya and and Bangkok, but once I got to Pattaya I I reduced down my days in Bangkok because it was just. I love the beach. They have the international jazz festival on the beach. Free of charge, 50 cent beers. It was just, it was amazing. And then the music and how friendly people are and how people are from all over the world.
56:52 – Samuel Adeyinka (Host)
Yeah, yeah, that’s amazing, Jasper. Again, thank you for sharing the time with us. You just dropped so many pearls and so much wisdom today on this show. It’s amazing what you’re doing. We can’t wait to see as you continue with Essie Pharmaceuticals. And thank you again for being on the Medical Sales Podcast. Hey, no worries, Samuel, pleasure to meet you finally, absolutely.
57:11
And that was Jasper Freeman man, fantastic stuff. You know, what I love about this episode is he really does have a command over how insurance works in this country, but, just as importantly, how it works globally. And it’s kind of interesting to hear that, as prominent as we are here in the United States, we are not the ones that are doing it the best and getting the best patient outcomes. And it’s also fascinating to know that the monopoly that pharmacy benefit managers have, how the pendulum, is starting to swing, the things that happen in this country. It’s almost like a cycle it goes one way and then it goes the other way and it all happens over a course of 50 to 60 to 70 years, and it looks like that’s happening in the pharmacy and insurance game today.
57:50
Thank you for listening to Medical Sales Podcast. If you’re listening to this episode and you’re thinking to yourself I want to do what Jasper doing, how do I get part of this world? Where do I go? Or maybe you’re thinking I want to make moves in advance in my career and I love the things he was saying. Then you know I’m going to tell you to go, evolve your successcom, get access to us and let’s have a conversation.
58:09
And if you’re listening to this podcast and you love the things you hear, then make sure you go to Spotify, you go to Apple iTunes and you rate this podcast. Give it a true rating it’s five stars for you and let people know about it. And make sure you tune in next week for another episode of the Medical Sales Podcast. I hope you enjoyed today’s episode and remember I have a customized and personalized program that gets you into the medical technology industry as a sales professional or any type of role for that matter. Become a top performer in your position and masterfully navigate your career to executive level leadership. Check out these programs and learn more at EvolvesAssesscom by visiting our site, filling out an application schedule, some time with one of our account executives and allowing us to get you where you need to be. Stay tuned for more awesome content with amazing interviews on the Medical Sales Podcast.
Medical Territory Manager!
I was a Regional Sales Representative for Long-Term Care pharmacy services. I had dreamed of getting into the med sales industry when I went into my career as a nurse, but the pharmacy sales job came to me, and I had just settled. Fortunately, I had a job shakeup that allowed me to determine that now was the time to pursue my original vision.
I absolutely would not have this position without Samuel and the Evolve Your Success community. A lot of people my age would just stop trying, but EYS believed in me.
EYS allowed me to break into the industry in 90-Days after I had been trying on my own for over two years! I had lots of recruiter screenings, and a few interviews with hiring managers, but I was never offered a position.
Before EYS, I didn’t realize I was doing the bare minimum to get hired. I was applying everywhere, hoping to get noticed and waiting. It just wasn’t working! I didn’t know that that was not enough to compete in an industry this sought after, and against people who knew what I didn’t know about the process.
Of course, I had to think hard before making a financial investment that’s reasonably substantial. But when I read the testimonials of real med sales reps on the site and learned that I wasn’t the only one taking a chance on my success, that EYS was sharing that risk also, I knew I had to do it. Though you might be able to cobble together some of the steps of getting a role in med sales from online research on your own, you just can’t know what you don’t know!
The process of going through EYS presents this insider knowledge to the student, as well as giving you a progression of difficulty as you obtain the information, and you begin to master it. Not only that, but they give you access to amazing mentors and instructors, allow you to practice your interview skills, and teach you how to market yourself through social media and your own website! I cannot stress enough that EYS was the factor that made the difference in my successfully landing my dream job! The support, structure, and knowledge gained was invaluable!
I would recommend this course to ANYONE looking to break into medical sales
Thank you so much, EYS! This journey has been life changing and has resulted in the successful culmination of my 18-Year ambition! 
Sports Medicine in Phoenix! I extend so much gratitude to the Evolve Your Success group as I land this role and get ready to pursue my dream job. I am a Physical Therapist who became a little stuck in the profession due to issues with reimbursement and the difficulty for continued growth upwards. I turned to EYS to assist me in learning about the medical sales industry and gain knowledgable mentors who were able to help coach me in this process. I am a strong believer in surrounding yourself with the best and good things will happen. I did work hard, but with the support of my mentors and other colleagues going through a career change, I felt a sense of community and it confirmed my drive to get into this industry. I have already learned so much through the interview process, and feel very blessed to have had the resources this group provided. I have made lifelong friends and I cannot wait to continue to follow others’ journeys to pursue this incredible field. I urge you to give Evolve Your Success a try to gain mentorship, guidance, and support through any career transition.
and am excited to make a difference in patients’ lives as a Pharmaceutical Sales Specialist.
! Though I truly enjoyed working as a physical therapist, I can’t wait to start my career in the sales world as a Clinical Account Executive.
. I owe this opportunity to Samuel, the program, and the incredible mentors at EYS.
