The Powerful Journey to Winning in Modern Medical Sales
In this episode of the Medical Sales Podcast, Samuel Adeyinka sits down with Mark Copeland to break down what today’s medical device reps need to understand about building a sustainable career in a changing medtech landscape. Mark shares lessons from decades in medical device sales, leadership, consulting, and training, with deep experience in the operating room, sterile processing, spine, perioperative sales, and small med device companies. He explains why medical sales is no longer the same career it was ten years ago, why many reps are burning out after five to eight years, and how lack of training, unclear career paths, and weak sales leadership are holding reps back. He also shares what separates average reps from those who take real ownership of their careers, including mentorship, self assessment, strategic development, and learning how to sell beyond the physician into the full hospital system. This episode is a must listen for anyone in medical device sales who wants to become more valuable, gain more control over their career, and understand what it really takes to win in today’s healthcare sales environment.
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Transcription:
Samuel (00:00.159) but it's gonna be recording the whole time. first off, man, how the heck have you been? It's been like, what, three years, four years? Like, what is going on? Mark Copeland (00:05.762) I I don't think it's been that long, but it's been probably two. And more importantly, dude, how are you feeling? You were the one that was like having medical procedures done. Samuel (00:16.734) Yeah, yeah, no, I'm good. I'm good. No, I had a little cedar dom hundred percent It's just I thought I'd be able to do the episode that day and the recovery was like nothing You say you need to take some more time off. So I did but I'm a hundred percent now Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm good. I'm good Mark Copeland (00:30.134) It happens. It happens. You're good. Yeah. So, yeah, I know, yeah, I don't know. Somebody, I think suggested you interview me again, because I think that's when you reached out to me and I was like, Hey, remember we did, about, don't know if it's about value analysis or what exactly it's about, or if it's more just about getting into the business. Cause I know that's sort of, you know, your domain. So, yeah. So whatever you want to cover, we can cover. Samuel (00:52.902) Yeah. That's what, yeah. Samuel (00:58.222) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you know, I mean, I want to catch up with what you've been doing since. Mark Copeland (01:05.71) All right, very good. Samuel (01:06.892) Last time we spoke, what was the latest? Mark Copeland (01:10.862) I still sell into hospitals and ambulatory surgery centers. It's about 25 % of my time now. 75 % of it is consulting. I consult for small med device companies teaching their sales forces how to sell new products into hospitals and ambulatory surgery centers because nowadays you know it like Samuel (01:32.529) Love it. Mark Copeland (01:34.75) It used to be get the doctor interested, doctor got what they want. Now let's get the doctor interested and the fun begins. Does that make sense? Samuel (01:37.094) Yep. Yep. I love it. So let's do this. For this episode, OK, we'll touch lightly on your space. We'll touch lightly on 3T medical systems. Then let's. Mark Copeland (01:55.138) Yeah, and you could, I can't remember if I told you this, you could just, I'm leaving them in about a week and a half. So you could, yeah, don't worry about it. You can just say, hey, you can, you can, you can say, like, you can say 3T Medical, it's fine. I just didn't want you to, we're leaving, yeah. Samuel (02:11.247) Well, then how, so where are you going? Mark Copeland (02:14.733) I'm going to be my total own entity. Have been really for two years, but like I still keep the trains on time at 3T medical in a little bit. It's a yeah, but but. It's it's basically called. Value analysis expert right? Samuel (02:24.258) wow, what's your entity called? Samuel (02:33.041) Value analysis expert. so then now, can we talk about it? Can we, okay. Okay, so we'll kick off the episode with, it's been a while, how have you been? What do you do now? Go ahead and say, I train sales teams, this is I work on. And then I'll say, well, where are you now? Talk about value analysis, talk about your own company. I think the episode can be based on two things. Mark Copeland (02:36.941) Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark Copeland (02:54.977) Mm-hmm. Samuel (02:58.809) Since you're training other med tech companies on how to hire, I mean, how to sell, I'm assuming that bleeds into how to hire. Okay. Mark Copeland (03:07.209) yeah, and I still have about two people a week who, well, probably four people a month who call me and go, hey, can you help my kid get in? My son wants to talk to you. Can we? Yes. I tell them to buy Mace Horoff's book. I tell them to follow Mace U and, and I just have people follow Jeremy and Samuel (03:18.627) Are you sending them to us, Mark? That's the real question. Samuel (03:25.408) Okay. Mark Copeland (03:34.893) Oh my god, I'm blanking our name. Because I think the reps who use LinkedIn in a way that think new younger generations should consider. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do send them your way, by the way. Samuel (03:42.692) need to learn. Yeah. Okay. That's awesome. So let's do this. Let's talk about what you do now, the training, and then this is perfect for us to get into what makes an amazing sales rep. I think one thing that still happens today in 2026, there's a lot of reps out there. They just don't know how to be great. And their companies, they're too big to give them the specific training that they are hoping to get. or too small to give them any training at all. And that's why they look for sources, know, services like mine, services like I'm sure you, and they look for training. So let's talk about that landscape, what makes a good rep. And then I would love to talk about what hiring manager looking for. So, and I'll give you the secret behind it. So right now, you know, we've placed hundreds into medical cell positions now. And the majority. Mark Copeland (04:14.605) I would agree. Mark Copeland (04:21.911) Good. Mark Copeland (04:28.481) Yeah. Samuel (04:38.025) of our students that enroll in our programs and pay for our services, they are green as can be, right? Nurses, PTs, physical therapists, OTs, teachers, real estate agents, but they've never touched medical sales. Either they come from healthcare and they've never touched sales, or they come from some business admin job and they've never touched healthcare or sales. And then sometimes we do get... Mark Copeland (04:54.687) Okay. Mark Copeland (05:00.991) I was gonna ask you, you get college, just like recent college grads, or is it, yeah, okay. Samuel (05:04.529) Yeah, we get those two. Yeah, I would say about 20 % recent college grads, 40 % healthcare clinicians, and 40 % everybody else. Mark Copeland (05:16.936) Take it easy on the math, dude. Take it easy on the math. You're like... Samuel (05:20.796) So yeah, so 20 % new college grads, 40 % in healthcare, 40 % everybody else. So what we continue to see though is we have a lot of success. We have success getting people that have no sales experience or no medical experience and definitely no medical sales experience into these roles. But I'd love to hear from someone like you to speak about how that is very real because these are the things that we need to see. It's not so much we need to see that you have medical experience. Mark Copeland (05:25.313) Okay. Mark Copeland (05:41.633) Yeah. Yep. Yep. Samuel (05:48.753) But we need to see the specific skill set that allows us to think you're worth taking a chance on and. Mark Copeland (05:55.668) Exactly. That's perfect. I have basically have this chambered because I answer this so many times. I'm like, okay, here's what you're going to here's what they're looking for. It's not what you think it is. Think about like and then we do the whole the whole thing. So I'm totally in line with you. Yep. Samuel (06:12.421) love it. Okay, so let's have some fun. All right. So hey Mark, how are we doing today? Mark Copeland (06:14.369) Sorry. I am great. Samuel, how are you? What's going on? Samuel (06:18.799) I am fantastic, fantastic. How long has it been since we've spoken? Mark Copeland (06:22.283) I was trying to think about that. think it might be close to two years maybe? Probably somewhere in there. Yeah. Samuel (06:26.193) Two plus years, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you've been doing amazing things. Last time we spoke, you were Vice President of Sales at 3T Medical Systems, but I know that you've been moving up and doing your own thing. So please tell us exactly what you're doing now, what space you're in now, and what you're doing now. Mark Copeland (06:42.069) Well, because I'm old and have, let's say I've taken several dozen spins around the sun. have a lot of this unique experience, most of it with smaller med device companies. And so every sales mistake that's been made, I've made it every, every bad career choice. I've probably done it twice and Samuel (06:43.985) We don't use that word around here, Samuel (06:52.709) Okay. Mark Copeland (07:11.211) But over the past two years, really started posting and teaching. was consulting for some companies sort of on the side, just teaching them the new arena in which we sell because medical selling and medical sales is different than it was 10 years ago. It's considerably different. And so I have started to do a lot more of that. And it's primarily because I started posting about my experiences and failures and on LinkedIn and companies started reaching out to me saying hey like could you can we hire you can we could you teach us what you have learned and I was already doing it I just wasn't promoting it and so now I've spent the past since you and I talked doing a lot of that and it's great it's fun and I you know I I get to teach people all the things not to do because I did them all right so yeah Samuel (07:54.406) Yeah. Samuel (08:02.093) Amazing, amazing. So let's, let's, let's qualify it a little bit. So talk to us. What specific medical device specialties are you training in now? Mark Copeland (08:03.661) Yeah. Mark Copeland (08:12.607) Yeah, so my training in medical device was in spine for about 15 years and then really like operating room sterile processing but I also did I also sold a lot of things into emergency department, NICU, ICU, so sort of broad-based right. Today I am focused really on perioperative operating room sterile processing because I just like it. I think it's fascinating always always have it always will. Samuel (08:26.833) Okay. Okay. Mark Copeland (08:42.317) So that's my training. I have hung out with a lot of surgeons in lot of operating rooms, lot of sterile processing departments over my career. So that's where I'm focused. If I'm selling a product, it's usually in that space. Samuel (08:59.761) Okay, so when you're training, working with a med device company, it's also in that space. Mark Copeland (09:01.581) Mm. Mark Copeland (09:06.027) Yeah, not necessarily though. Yeah, it tends to be because of my sort of historical background. People who know me know me. did those things. But I've been working with companies now that in urology, in the ICU, in the NICU, in the ED, places where I didn't necessarily have years of experience. But again, it's cool. I like it. It's I'm an old liberal arts guy hits different parts of your brain. And so yeah, but if you Samuel (09:12.87) Right. Samuel (09:17.219) Okay. Okay. Okay. Samuel (09:28.687) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Copeland (09:35.169) you said to me, where do you really know what you're talking about? It's the operating room and central processing. Samuel (09:40.242) Okay, so let's stay there. Let's stay in the operating room and let's talk about the medical device rep specifically that is doing procedures. in the operating room. That's where they're going every day. Give us, know, I want to qualify exactly the person, you know, almost like an avatar of who we're talking about. Give us a day in the life of the average person you're training. When are they waking up? Mark Copeland (09:46.625) Mm-hmm. Samuel (10:06.001) They're going from hospital to hospital. When are they getting, when are they done at night? What is it looking like? Mark Copeland (10:10.413) I mean, if they're average, they're getting to the hospital at 7 a.m. and probably, I mean, listen, if they're average, they've probably been in the business four or five years, was an associate which had some business ceded to them and are turning $800,000 of business, hopefully into 1.5 million or whatever, right? So they're in the OR at 7 a.m. They get home and they spend hopefully a good bit of their day in the OR. They make two or three sales calls a week. Samuel (10:40.091) Okay. Mark Copeland (10:40.333) and running around and are more medical device coverage than sales. But it seems to me that's they spend it in the OR, they love wearing scrubs in, they can hang out in scrubs and I'm just, you know, that's I think the typical average day. don't know unless, is that what your experience is? Is that what you said? Samuel (10:51.44) the average. Sure. Okay. No, no, no. So remember, my experience is much broader than that because from our vantage point, medical device is just a subset of medical sales, right? You have biotech, have pharma, have four different specialties that we help people get into. But medical device specifically, and right now we're talking about even a subset of a subset with urology, NICU, it's a small subset. So sticking with that subset. Mark Copeland (11:28.555) Yeah. Samuel (11:30.699) Average. What's that average rep making? The average. Mark Copeland (11:34.925) I think probably $120,000 to $150,000, I would think. Yeah. Samuel (11:38.033) Okay, okay, okay, OTE. Okay, and again, what's the lifespan, career span of the average rep that we're talking about right now? How long are they doing this for? Typically. Mark Copeland (11:52.974) That's a question. I would say it used to be... I think it used to be a destination when I got into it and probably till 15 years ago it was a destination job. Once you got into it, you were in it, Like mission it, right? And I think today it's changed and I've seen it... I think it's five to eight years. But it's funny, I hadn't really thought about it till you asked me. So that's just sort of a... Samuel (12:02.501) You're Yeah. Yeah, you're done. Samuel (12:11.141) five to eight years. Samuel (12:16.881) Yeah. Mark Copeland (12:19.095) sort of a, you know, something I sense as opposed to something I know. Samuel (12:22.673) Sure, I'll take it. And then if we stick with that five to eight years, what do they typically go on to do? Mark Copeland (12:31.093) You know, it's interesting. I'm seeing a lot of people who are either, let's put it this way, they're either hoping to be promoted, And spend less time in the facilities because it's so much work these days in the facilities. Or they're getting out of it and going to do... I've seen people who I thought were going to be in it for the rest of their career. go to real estate. I've seen people go to small business ownership. It's just this weird change to an extent in medical device that it's... I don't know where everybody... I don't know where some people are going. I still suspect promoted. Samuel (12:53.553) No, it looks good. Samuel (13:12.251) But okay, but you would say that, for lack of a better phrase, people are leaving. Mark Copeland (13:21.087) Yeah, I don't know what the percentage is. I never used to see it. I'm seeing it now. It's more than it used to be, you know? Samuel (13:25.105) seen it now. Okay, so let's talk about that. You know, what's what's it driven by from what you're seeing the average talking with the average now because we're gonna get into the superstars in a second. But right now we're talking about the average rep. They're 7am to what time do you say they're getting home again? Usually around six. Mark Copeland (13:42.101) Well, I mean, I would say six, but you know, if you're in the OR or ICU or ED or NICU, it's kind of to be determined, you know, towards the end of the day, like, you know, so, but it's long, it's unpredictable. Samuel (13:52.018) Okay, fair, Couple cases a week and they're hanging out in the OR, they're always wearing scrubs. They're making 120, 130 to 150, 160 and they have about a five to eight year career span and they're leaving the industry typically at the end of that five to eight years. Mark Copeland (14:20.109) I think we're seeing more and more of that. I don't know if it's typical, right? I don't want to say typical, but I think it's becoming more common than we would have anticipated. Samuel (14:23.631) Yeah, sure, sure. Samuel (14:29.041) So let's talk about it. Why do we think that's happening? Mark Copeland (14:33.319) A couple things, I think the job is hard, right? I had a guy I worked with for a long time, Mark Randall, who I respect tremendously. said, getting into this field, you're not getting a job, you're sort of taking on a lifestyle. And he didn't mean like sitting on a boat drinking pina coladas. He meant like... Samuel (14:46.991) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Mark Copeland (14:51.949) this is now your life right to an extent. I think that's hard and I also think I honestly think there's a I think there's a lack of sales training a lack of sales leadership generally speaking that wears people out because they're not seeing personal progress I think is oftentimes the case and I see a lot I hear that a lot more for people now. And I think smart companies are starting to realize that we need to invest a little bit more in our people, not necessarily compensation wise, but more developmental. Samuel (15:29.017) Yeah. So if you're, let's take this average, this typical, I hate the word average, let's say it's typical. This typical rep that's listening to this right now and they're thinking to themselves, Mark nailed it. I'm in this right now. I'm in it right now. What would you say to this rep to give themselves better control over the career they hope to have? Or maybe we start there. What do you think? Mark Copeland (15:53.781) Mm. It's good co- Yeah, that's good. Samuel (15:56.07) The rep that has this typical experience we just described, what do you think they wish they had or they thought it could look like? Mark Copeland (16:03.489) Well, think, I think, I mean, I would advise somebody to think about like, well, first of all, what, what gives you job satisfaction? It doesn't mean you love it or whatever. It's like, what gets you up? What challenges you and you like accomplishing because that's really what job satisfaction is. So do you still see that in your job, but you're not getting enough of it? What if, what if like you have to think that way? And then you have to decide like, okay, can I continue to do this this way? And it's funny, it's usually not money. Everybody thinks it is. It isn't. The vast majority of the reason people leave their jobs are they see no career path for promotion or growth, right? Or they have a lousy boss. I mean, it's usually those things. So I think, and then they, I honestly think the people that really Samuel (16:43.109) Yeah. Or growth. Yep. Yeah. It's right up. Yep. Mark Copeland (16:57.323) succeed regardless of a bad boss, whatever, are the people that have taken complete ownership of who they are and what they want to be. They're the ones who say, hey what's your game plan? They have the strategy, they've written it down, they have plans, here are the things I'm going to do, here's the time, here are the resources I'm going to invest in me. Companies used to sort of provide a lot of that. years ago. It seems to me they do less of it and so I think if you really want to get good you have to do it in some cases yourself and I would say are you willing to do that because if you're not that's okay but you should probably go somewhere where they'll help you do it because you won't do it for yourself but I don't you know it's hard man like these jobs are great they're rewarding they're difficult That's why they're great and rewarding. You I don't know. You have as much sense of this because you talk to so many people as I do. I don't know. Samuel (18:03.601) Yeah, yeah. What I see, and this is what I want to get your insight in as well, I feel and I see people just don't know what they're really getting into. And with the growth of med tech companies, which is the growth of med tech, and correct me you see it differently, with the growth of med tech, I think it's getting to a place of we need bodies. At the end of the day, Mark Copeland (18:31.317) Yes. Yes. Samuel (18:32.283) We have this new product, we have this new innovation. Now it's a mile a minute that these innovations are coming out. We need bodies. Who can we hire as fast as possible? Let's get this ball rolling. And so they're finding these bodies and they just don't want to spend the time because they want to get that product to wherever they believe it's supposed to go. And they're saying, get out there and do your best. And because there's so many people now that are aware of medical sales, they're aware of these sexy jobs with all this money and think what they think. They're throwing themselves and they're just making themselves available. Companies are taking advantage of that. And you're left with this never developed person that is looking for the opportunity, endless amount of jobs that can be recycled quickly if you're not able to deliver, and all these people that are not sure what to do with their careers. Tell me if that sounds... Mark Copeland (19:21.779) Hmm, I think that I think you nailed it. I think you said it perfectly and I see it a lot of that and it's you know I don't want to say they're throwing bodies at it, but they're throwing bodies at it to an extent and That's the only way you could almost describe it So you can either rail against that and say that's not right or you can accept it and say all right Well, I plan on being a little bit different because the rest of these folks are not going to last right? But absolutely, that's absolutely the... Listen, I will tell you, I got hired by Pfizer in the go-go pharma days of late 90s, right? 96. Right. And I remember they hired 500 of us. They had 500 territories across country. They hired a whole new division. We were going to work with three other divisions. And I remember this specifically. They said to us the first day of training, which we had to go to for eight weeks. It was like going back to college. Samuel (20:01.913) Man, the heyday. Mark Copeland (20:20.653) They said, every one of you people that's sitting here, we spent $100,000 finding you and starting to train you. So understand, this is an investment in you because you we've already spent $100,000 on you. And I remember sitting there thinking like, wow. And then they you know what? They trained us so well that I left four and a half years later. I have nothing but good things to say about them. and I still use their training today. Right? Like they were committed to being the best and the best trained and the best most competent and I laugh when Med Device makes fun of Pharma because I'm like half you guys couldn't handle the training we went through when I was at Pharma and it was tremendous. It was the best training I will ever have in my career you know so you know let's let's hold off and make it fun of Samuel (21:07.025) Right. Samuel (21:13.073) you Mark Copeland (21:17.483) something we don't understand. So I don't know, I definitely agree with you. I don't see that happening except for a handful of companies in Med Device. Samuel (21:26.449) Okay, so with that in mind, what is the best way someone that's listening to this right now and thinking, I need to get better control of my career, where would you say they start? What advice would you give? Mark Copeland (21:41.742) If you don't have them get mentors, I mean identify someone ask them to be your mentor. Somebody in your company that's where you would what doing their job the way you would like to be seen doing yours and go find them and ask them to be a guy right like tell them I've identified you as a mentor and I'm going to try to ring every bit of knowledge out of you I can. And if you gotta buy a beers or chocolate chip cookies or hug them, who cares? Do it, number one. And then number two, also self-assess yourself. Like look at yourself and say, what do I do well? What do think I do well? And I'd like to do more of. What do I not do well and I need to do better? And then where do I go find resources? It might be your mentor, it might be a book, it might be a training you go to, but Samuel (22:17.425) Do it. Mark Copeland (22:40.633) you know they always said Lebron James spends a million dollars a year on just training his body right on trainers and I mean okay if he's willing to do it I don't think you need you don't need to spend a million but you need to spend some time money and make some sacrifices and if you do that it always works oops sorry just dropped something it always works so why would you not do it right Samuel (22:51.867) Yeah, then you gotta do something. Yeah. Samuel (23:11.025) You said you train teams now and just so I understand, what is the typical size of the teams that you train? Mark Copeland (23:20.525) Because I tend to work with small-med device companies, it's usually sales forces of anywhere between 15 and 50. I'm working with one right now that's, mean, they're direct reps, they have three, but they're sales agents, they're 1099s, are probably closer to 40. So yeah, typically. Samuel (23:41.883) Sure, sure. Samuel (23:47.73) Okay, talk to us a little bit about how sales has changed for the rep in the past five years and the biggest gaps you see when you're training these teams now. Mark Copeland (24:01.665) I think, here's why I think the job's gotten harder, is because of the way healthcare has changed. So 10 years ago Samuel and Cope, our partners were out selling something and we knew that if we learned to talk the language of the doctor and we understood them, we understood the procedures, the anatomy, the pathology, how they talk, the Latin, like we would sell. we could sell products because if surgeons or doctors or heads of the ICU said, like this, they got it because they were the doctor. Health systems have merged. massive conglomerates now. 75 % of all doctors are employed now. They sort of feel like they've lost their political clout to an extent. It's certainly down regulated. And now we as salespeople don't just sell clinicians. it's almost like this used to be the end line like we got their mission accomplished now it's like okay cool job started now we have to get these new products approved in these monstrosities and nobody tells us how to that's what i teach companies how to do that i'm i can teach you how to talk to doctors really well but most companies are getting decent at that or at least the reps are getting because otherwise they won't if they can't talk to doctors they won't survive right Samuel (25:22.863) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark Copeland (25:24.529) And I could train people on that, but that's not what I do. I train those that say, I can get doctors interested. I have doctors who want this. We have no idea how to get this approved in this health system or even down to this ambulatory surgery center. And that's because this change in the healthcare structure requires another set of skills, not one that replaces that, that actually layers on top of it and it's business. cases. And so it's like a whole new set of skills that we're kind of required to understand. And that's not easy. I actually think the job is harder today than it was five years ago. So does that, I mean, does that helpfully answer your question? Yeah. Samuel (26:03.289) Right. Right. Samuel (26:10.543) Yeah, it does. Now, when you train these companies, is it typically it's all on the rep? The rep has to figure out how to find these other touch points to get something approved so they can actually be utilized by the physicians. Or is it typically a whole different department that you're also training to have that conversation? Mark Copeland (26:30.317) It's back to your question earlier. It's funny. It's the reps. I had to do this because if I didn't, nobody else could. Now, Stryker or Medtronic is slightly different. But, right? But if you're a rep and you want to sell and close deals, if you don't know how to do this, you better have somebody really good you can fast rope in. Samuel (26:40.303) Nobody would do it. Samuel (26:45.057) where they have big enough, yeah. Mark Copeland (27:00.327) do it and I think the really good ones are trying to figure it out right the the mediocre ones are like I don't know what to do when somebody gonna help me and that's kind of one of the differences between the mediocre and the really good you know so you know I think if you own your territory and you own your business you make it your business I'll hold this up you can won't be able to see it but like These are the people I think everybody who calls on an operating room should call on and who they are, what their training is, what matters to them generally speaking because if you don't add them it's gonna be hard, right? They're not doctors by the way, you know. Samuel (27:44.764) So, right. So then just to qualify this, because people are listening right now that they don't understand enough about what we're talking about because they just haven't been in it, right? They want to be in medical sales. They're trying to all the information they can. Describe for us what it looks like to do it the old way or the uninformed way where you're just going after the doctor and describe to us who you actually have in conversations with with this way to be effective today. Mark Copeland (28:09.227) Yeah, so the old way was I call on Dr. Samuel. Dr. Samuel somehow lets me in his office. I have something he's interested in and he's like, hey, I like this. In 2015, he would say, I want this, I'll get this approved and we'll use it next week, right? Went through a little committee and I'm cool. And I handed somebody a bill when we did the case in the OR. Now it is Dr. Samuel says, hey I like this you got to get it approved and now what I have learned is here's here's what foolish companies do they ask well what you what how do we submit new products here doctor because dr. Samuel has no idea either he's an employee nobody explains it to him he goes I think you're supposed to submit it through some portal through the supply chain I'm going to urge everybody listening to this do not do that What we're going to do is try to, I tell doctors, okay, cool, you want it. Now do not submit anything doc, because we need to build a business case. These people in here are not going to approve any new product unless they understand clinically, why is it better for our patients? And then also I need a justification. Why should we add this? like, we don't understand any of this. And these are the people I go to in the OR, directors of perioperative services. and the ICU, it's the clinical director. They're usually a nurse who has some clinical background, rapidly can understand your complex technology, but they run the business of the ICU. They run, they carry the profit and loss. They hold the P &L, right? So it's not supply chain. Supply chain buys things and organizes things and manages contracts. The person who runs the ICU, usually somebody who's like I understand what you mean we cannot we have to decrease our sepsis rates this might help us it's really good for patients and by the way one of our KPIs is decreasing sepsis identification and diagnosis from 12 hours to four hours that's a KPI I think you help us that's a strategic win right doctors will walk into these value analysis means I want this it's better for patients Samuel (30:24.251) Mm-hmm. Mark Copeland (30:34.667) That's not enough anymore. Right? So the new process is, in my case, I think we find a new champion or multiple champions who understand the clinical and the business. Because if you don't, it just dies. It just sits somewhere and nobody approves it. So the new process is, we're selling to businesses. This is business to business. You don't just go to Coca-Cola and talk to some guy and he goes, Samuel (31:03.153) Thank Mark Copeland (31:03.927) yeah, let's buy two million dollars worth of your whatever. Other industries look at us and they're like, what are you talking about? Doctors get to make their decisions. No, they don't anymore. Right? So how would you sell if you're selling to Home Depot? It's different and we have to do both. That's why it's hard. And I train them how to sell to Home Depot within hospitals and ambulatory surgery centers. Yeah. Does that make any sense, Samuel? Samuel (31:07.441) Right. Samuel (31:25.145) Yeah, yeah. Samuel (31:30.681) Yeah, it does. No, it does. It does. It makes sense. For that rep that's listening right now and saying, you know, Mark's right. I haven't been able to push this product and I have the best relationship with these doctors ever and nothing's happening. How do I learn how to do what Mark is talking about? What would you say? Mark Copeland (31:33.677) It's okay to tell me no. Mark Copeland (31:49.986) Well, I would say, first of all, not to sound self-promotional, this is all I post about on LinkedIn. I do all kinds of educational stuff specifically for free for reps in that position because their companies are not doing it, generally speaking. So I feel bad for reps. These reps have these amazing technologies. They've actually done the hard part. Doctors want it. And then we can't get in the hands of doctors to help patients. Samuel (31:56.124) Yeah, Mark Copeland (32:18.049) because we don't know what to do next. Like we don't know, right? So I try to help reps as much as I can for free. My DMs are full of them. My texts are full of them. And I will always try to help them that way. So if they just follow me on LinkedIn and they have a question, just ping me. I probably have something educational that I can just send to them that they can train themselves a little bit. Right? And but I mean, But I think if you really, because here's how I learned how to do it. I went and talked to the people and said, what the hell is it that you need? What do you need? Because if I don't understand this, I don't sell anything and the Copeland's may have to move, right? And I went and asked over a hundred people on these committees, what do you need? What are you looking for? What's the best new product request you've ever seen? What are the worst ones? What do you wish everybody did better that you'd go like, really? Another one these? They tell you everything. because I'm not selling something. I'm discovering how to get them what they need to see to approve my new product for my clinical champions. And you know, a lot of people won't do that. You can do it if you want or you can call me and I'll tell you what they're going to say. I like I'm holding up again. have like things like this, but you'll know exactly who they are, what they care about. you know, hope that helps. Samuel (33:40.133) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mark Copeland (33:47.437) I mean, it's hard to tell sometimes. Samuel (33:47.566) It does. And it makes me wonder, it seems obvious because it's the direction of healthcare in general and everyone's coagulating together and becoming bigger players. Why wouldn't these companies be on the forefront of this and be making sure, doubling down and making sure their reps have this mastered? Why is that even a gap? Mark Copeland (34:11.149) Samuel, will, right? Like there are plenty of smart people. I just happen to be ahead of it because of a couple of weird confluence of events. And it's also a, it's a relatively recent phenomenon, right? Like in 2018, people were sort of like, yeah, I know, but my doctor's important. It's he'll get it or she'll get it. And they still kind of did. This is sort of hit because of all the merger. So I tell people this. Samuel (34:35.267) figure it out. Mark Copeland (34:41.771) there were 50 to 60 health care systems merged every year for five straight years in the United States. every health system, look wherever you live, I guarantee there used to be four or five hospitals, maybe two health, you know now there's two health systems and that's entirely different. So that's a relatively recent phenomenon and there's plenty of smart people figuring it out. But I the advice, I can't tell you how many companies I've said Samuel (34:53.691) Right, right, right, right, right. Mark Copeland (35:10.859) Instead of hiring 20 doctors as consultants to teach everything you need to know, hire 18 and hire two of these people and just tell them what they need to see. And so far I am zero for 200. All of our like, Iowawi, when everyone would have thought of that. I'm thinking, but like there's a disconnect right now that's catching up, right? So I'm smart now. We'll see how smart I am in five years. Samuel (35:29.733) Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last question on this topic. So like you said, this is a recent phenomenon and it's happened pretty quickly. mean, 2018 to now, that's less than 10 years. Where do you, what's the next evolution of this? Where do you see it headed from here? Mark Copeland (35:45.538) Mm. Mark Copeland (35:53.356) Well, you and I have seen this now where so many procedures and CMS centers for Medicare and Medicaid services who sort of drives the way the dollar gets used in the United States for healthcare, right? They are pushing so many procedures to outpatient settings, to ambulatory surgery centers, to procedure rooms. The things they can do in cardiac alone is astounding. they're doing in these places now right they're less invasive they're less disruptive and so that's another sort of wave that's hitting all at the same time from sort of like a different orthogonal distance so trying to understand how that all is occurring is something that people are going to want to pay attention to you don't have to be a PhD you don't have to be an MBA I'm living living proof you don't have to but you have to pay attention to it because they're the wins. Right? Like you hold your finger up and wet it and you're kind of patterns and those are things to pay attention to and understand and if you at least understand those you are ahead of 90 percent of the people within your company and with whom you compete out in the field. Yeah so that's what makes you really good to what I think makes you great. Samuel (37:18.513) I love it. Now let's switch gears a little bit and dive just a little bit of time into hiring people. And I want to speak specifically to hiring people with no experience in medical sales. Give us top five things. If you're someone that has no mental self experience, but you've been working for 10 years, two years, five years in any industry, anything, what are the skills that, you believe absolutely have to... Mark Copeland (37:18.913) You know, Mark Copeland (37:25.783) Yeah. Samuel (37:48.389) be there to even be somewhat considered. Mark Copeland (37:52.494) I would say there's a couple of things that I have seen the really good people do that most people who want to get into this should think about. Number one, you have to be coachable, right? And you also have to be willing to learn and know that you don't know everything immediately. This is complicated. If you're going to train me to learn the ICU, if I think I'm going to learn the ICU in 90 days, I probably shouldn't be in the business in the first place because it is so complicated and so technical and so deeply clinical that it's almost insulting that I would think I could walk in and do it. So I have to be willing to put my ego aside and learn and be willing to be coached because if you're not willing to be coached you're not going to be any good. mean you know so number one do you have examples of you being coached and do you have examples of you putting your ego aside and learning right those are really important things now most people have those and then next I would say okay now what motivates you number three is not necessarily any order are you motivated and by what I don't really care by what but what I do care is are you motivated and then can you prove it to me Right? Because everybody says, yeah, I'm coachable. Yeah, I want to learn. Yeah, I'm motivated. You're all full of crap. Right? You're all full of crap. Until you start giving me examples. Give me some examples. Give me some of those. And then I want to know, can you fit on my team? Right? Because most of us, very few of us are lone wolves in this business. We will be working with teams, whether in the ICU, the OR, your Samuel (39:20.847) Everybody says it. Everybody says it. Mark Copeland (39:47.99) sales partners, whoever it is and are you willing to work with a team because I can't spend all this time to hire you and six months in I find out you're a complete jerk and everybody hates you because that's awful. You don't have to be a people person but you cannot be polarizing right and then honestly the fifth one is are you goal-oriented? Do you have goals and do you work towards them and prove it to me? Don't just tell me you are because I don't believe you. Nobody believes you because everybody says it and show me like yeah well actually I spent an entire summer lifting weights because I got tired of getting pushed around on the lacrosse field right or I decided I wanted to go learn something so I paid for this course and I went and spent it and now I have this certification with him. Okay you're goal-oriented. and then you showed me how you did it and you made sacrifices towards it and you'll notice I didn't say people person effervescent personality right those things are nice but if you don't have those other four to five things like you're gonna you're gonna fail miserably you're gonna hate it you know so those are the things I want to know and I think most hiring managers want to know are you willing like if you think about Samuel (40:54.041) Right, right. Samuel (41:00.945) sure. Mark Copeland (41:15.423) In sales, the reason people like to hire people with sales experience is not because they're great at sales necessarily, because they're used to getting judged, force ranked, putting a number next to them, right? And you don't suck your thumb. go, I plan on being ahead of that next year, right? If you have examples of that, that's really what we're looking for. We just know if you've done it for enterprise, you're used to being force ranked. If you've done it for Cintas, you've been coached, right? Like, Samuel (41:21.893) Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Samuel (41:35.567) Yeah. Mark Copeland (41:44.235) and you're proving to us you're willing to do those things. Does that make sense? don't know what like, does that jive with what you see? Samuel (41:46.959) Right, right. That makes perfect sense. You know, it's what we teach. So you know in our program, at UBARB Assists, Medical Self-Experience Career Builder, we're training these people to bring that out, right? Because having placed hundreds of people into positions, we keep seeing over and over and over again, it's not about having medical experience or even self-experience. It's about demonstrating what medical self-experience and self-experience gives people, the grit. To be able to get your slam in your face over and over and over again and still get up and act as if it's your first day and you're gonna make the best impression, right? Mark Copeland (42:21.345) Right. Samuel (42:21.701) how to develop a relationship when someone wants nothing to do with you, right? And have to go after it and be hungry at all costs. So yes, last question I have for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Mark Copeland (42:26.049) Right. Yeah. Mark Copeland (42:30.561) Yeah, yeah, you just nailed it. You just nailed it, buddy. I'm glad you're teaching people that because that is what we're looking for in the business. Samuel (42:37.509) Yes. Yes. Last thing I have for you is so, now I think a long time ago there wasn't, there weren't programs that anyone could enroll themselves into to learn how to get into this industry. Now, I mean, there are, I mean, we have one of them. I want to believe that maybe five, six, seven, eight years ago, what people thought about programs was Ziffy, right? Because, because someone investing in themselves to get into an industry, You're just not sure what the intention is, right? And you're not sure what that program is doing with that individual to prepare them. Nowadays though, I'd like to believe that it's much more common and real talents come out of some of these organizations, especially ours. But without my bias, what do you think about when someone comes to you and says, I went to, I took the VARVUSS Medical Self Career Builder Program because I want to be in this industry so bad. I took it to get really blown up on these skills and showcase myself in the most powerful way. What are your thoughts on that effort? Mark Copeland (43:41.998) I think it's an advantage and I think it's a good thing because it shows they were willing to spend somebody's money. know, whoever it is, it could be theirs, it could be their parents, it could be whatever. Like, you've made a commitment, you've made a sacrifice that is a good indicator, right? So, when those programs started first coming up, I was like, oh, that's interesting. I didn't know how to assess them. I have come to the conclusion that I think they're good for showing your commitment. Because when you reach in your pocket, you're committing to an extent. I do think sometimes people come out it with false beliefs. I think they think, I go to this and so now I know sales. And I'm like, yeah. Samuel (44:34.201) automatic, right. Mark Copeland (44:37.555) No, you understand how not to be a jeopardy in the OR or the ICU, right? But you know your product, you maybe understand some of this stuff, but sales is a whole different entity, right? So I always tell people, don't confuse the two. You covering cases is not sales, that's service. Sales is going and getting new business. That's different. And I think sometimes people come out or conflate the two. Samuel (44:41.361) Thank Samuel (44:55.695) Right. Right. Mark Copeland (45:07.393) But yeah, I do think they're a good thing. mean, you know, I obviously you're biased. You think they are too, but I'm not. I'm not biased. I tell people who I get a lot of people coming out of college, medical related sales sounds cool. I want to do it. And I'm like, all right, all right. Well, consider some of these things, but understand it's, you know, it's a commitment. And, know, so yeah, I think it's. Samuel (45:12.481) Of course. Right. Mark Copeland (45:35.403) You're right, they didn't exist 10 years ago. I didn't know what to make of them at the first place. And I do think like some of them just try to tell people what to say. And I think it's more important to say this is what they're looking for. If you have it, here's how to reveal it. Right? Yeah, that's subtle. Samuel (45:36.921) Yeah, they did. No. Samuel (45:45.872) Right. Samuel (45:51.932) bring it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's not about telling them what to say. It's about telling them how to bring out what you authentically have. Right? Right. Mark Copeland (45:57.992) Mm-hmm, exactly. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think you guys, it strikes me as you guys do a pretty good job of that. I've listened to you guys talk about it. I think what you do is aimed the right direction. You have the right North Star. So I think that's why I do tell people, should check out Samuel. I don't like, I didn't take it, but I think you should, right? Or consider it. So, yeah. Samuel (46:17.787) Yeah, yeah, love it. love it. Mark, it's awesome spending time with you, man. We have one last thing to do today before we wrap it up. It's called our lightning round. Are you ready? You better be ready. You know this, but we're gonna do it again anyway. Mark Copeland (46:24.589) All Mark Copeland (46:29.887) I don't know how fast I am, but I will be as fast as I can. Let's go. Samuel (46:32.378) All right, all right, I'm asking four questions. All right, first question. What's the best book you've read in the last six months? Mark Copeland (46:38.333) boy, I'm reading Influence right now on a recommendation of a friend and it's fascinating and I wish I read it 20 years ago and I still every two or three years go back to read Spin Selling and so I'm probably due to refresh on Spin Selling. Lousy name, great selling program, awful name, great program. So how was that? Samuel (46:43.525) Okay. Yeah, that looks awesome. Yeah. Samuel (46:54.106) I love it. Samuel (46:59.889) Sure. Sure. No, that's good. fact, both of those are recommended reading in our program. But hey, let me just pause. Last time you recommended Destiny of the Republic, do you remember that? Why is that like one of my top, why is that one of my top like 10 books now? I loved that book, man. That book was fascinating. So thank you again for that recommendation. All right. Best TV show or movie you've seen in last six months? Mark Copeland (47:07.853) Thank you. Mark Copeland (47:15.015) yeah, yeah, great book. They turned it into a Netflix series. Mark Copeland (47:20.885) Really? It's unbelievable! Well, you're welcome. I man, I'm an old English major. Mark Copeland (47:34.626) The Pit, not even close, The Pit. I think The Pit on HBO, Noah Wiley's. you got to watch it. So it's basically a made up level one trauma emergency department in Pittsburgh called The Pit. And it is like two seasons now, 12 hours each, I think. And it is a shift. And it is some of the most compelling TV I have ever seen since The Wire. Samuel (47:36.369) I've never even heard of it. What's that? What's the thing? Never even heard of it. Samuel (47:53.585) Wow. Samuel (47:59.65) Like that, okay. Really? The wire's a classic, okay. I'll check that out. Okay. Right, right, right, right up our alley. All right, and then we want the item and the restaurant and the location. Best meal you've had in last six months. Mark Copeland (48:04.525) Oh, think it's, Yeah. I said, give it a run. And it's right in our field, right? It's right in the device. Mark Copeland (48:19.565) I was not ready for this. The one I had at Hotel Hershey with my wife for her birthday a couple months ago. It's a great place. The best company on the planet. My wife. Yeah, go ahead. Samuel (48:29.617) Okay. Hotel Hershey. Okay, where is this exactly? Okay, okay, I will, I'm hold you to it. Consider it done. And then last but not least, what's the best experience you've had the last six months? Experience. Mark Copeland (48:39.543) Hershey, Pennsylvania baby, land of chocolate, right? That's where I live. That's where my wife is from. yeah, come visit. We got a great, we got a great, you got kids, bring kids, we got a great park. So. Mark Copeland (48:56.495) The best what? boy, I'll tell you what it was. My kid graduated from college Northeastern University and got to walk at Fenway Park. We just did it a couple of months ago. It was awesome. It's my kid's graduation. It was emotional. Great place. Yeah, I'm gonna put that up there right now and then I'll probably something I've totally forgot that my wife will smack me when she hears. Listen, I like what you do. Thank you so much for Samuel (49:09.998) Wow. Samuel (49:15.088) Yeah. Samuel (49:22.801) I'm not sure. Mark Copeland (49:28.493) inviting me and having me on. Let me know how we can and please any other reps or potential reps feel free just come to LinkedIn I promise I will help you if you're struggling with these things I'm here to help you guys I'm here to charge your companies but not you I will help you if you're a rep just trying to get better and just trying to help your dog Samuel (49:29.133) Always Mark. Always. Samuel (49:41.446) Love it. Samuel (49:47.513) I love it. Mark Copeland, everyone. can find him on LinkedIn. You can look up Mark M-A-R-K Copeland C-O-P-E L-A-N-D. Mark, this is fantastic. Thank you for the time. Mark Copeland (49:57.666) Samuel, thank you so much. I was not ready. Samuel (49:59.346) Awesome. All right. That was good.
Medical Territory Manager!
I was a Regional Sales Representative for Long-Term Care pharmacy services. I had dreamed of getting into the med sales industry when I went into my career as a nurse, but the pharmacy sales job came to me, and I had just settled. Fortunately, I had a job shakeup that allowed me to determine that now was the time to pursue my original vision.
I absolutely would not have this position without Samuel and the Evolve Your Success community. A lot of people my age would just stop trying, but EYS believed in me.
EYS allowed me to break into the industry in 90-Days after I had been trying on my own for over two years! I had lots of recruiter screenings, and a few interviews with hiring managers, but I was never offered a position.
Before EYS, I didn’t realize I was doing the bare minimum to get hired. I was applying everywhere, hoping to get noticed and waiting. It just wasn’t working! I didn’t know that that was not enough to compete in an industry this sought after, and against people who knew what I didn’t know about the process.
Of course, I had to think hard before making a financial investment that’s reasonably substantial. But when I read the testimonials of real med sales reps on the site and learned that I wasn’t the only one taking a chance on my success, that EYS was sharing that risk also, I knew I had to do it. Though you might be able to cobble together some of the steps of getting a role in med sales from online research on your own, you just can’t know what you don’t know!
The process of going through EYS presents this insider knowledge to the student, as well as giving you a progression of difficulty as you obtain the information, and you begin to master it. Not only that, but they give you access to amazing mentors and instructors, allow you to practice your interview skills, and teach you how to market yourself through social media and your own website! I cannot stress enough that EYS was the factor that made the difference in my successfully landing my dream job! The support, structure, and knowledge gained was invaluable!
I would recommend this course to ANYONE looking to break into medical sales
Thank you so much, EYS! This journey has been life changing and has resulted in the successful culmination of my 18-Year ambition! 
Sports Medicine in Phoenix! I extend so much gratitude to the Evolve Your Success group as I land this role and get ready to pursue my dream job. I am a Physical Therapist who became a little stuck in the profession due to issues with reimbursement and the difficulty for continued growth upwards. I turned to EYS to assist me in learning about the medical sales industry and gain knowledgable mentors who were able to help coach me in this process. I am a strong believer in surrounding yourself with the best and good things will happen. I did work hard, but with the support of my mentors and other colleagues going through a career change, I felt a sense of community and it confirmed my drive to get into this industry. I have already learned so much through the interview process, and feel very blessed to have had the resources this group provided. I have made lifelong friends and I cannot wait to continue to follow others’ journeys to pursue this incredible field. I urge you to give Evolve Your Success a try to gain mentorship, guidance, and support through any career transition.
and am excited to make a difference in patients’ lives as a Pharmaceutical Sales Specialist.
! Though I truly enjoyed working as a physical therapist, I can’t wait to start my career in the sales world as a Clinical Account Executive.
. I owe this opportunity to Samuel, the program, and the incredible mentors at EYS.
